The "right to keep and bear arms"

subjects that are really off-topic

Postby Robb_K » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:50 pm

Rockerduck wrote:I wonder how that low moral and angry and frustrated people can be explained when it's one of the most religious countries in the world. (Or maybe it can, because religious people often tend to 'talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk'. But that's another debate.)

Robb_K wrote:Rockerduck: Even adjusting on a per capita basis, there are many more gun-related casualties in USA than in The Western European countries. Russia may have as many as USA, due to the lawlessness there, since the breakup of The Soviet Union. The last figures I saw showed that Canada had only ONE HUNDREDTH the gun-related killings that the USA had, on a per capita basis.

I don't know if that's true. I would believe what you're saying, but I don't know for sure. However, I assume that you're right, but that still doesn't justify Moore for doing a poor job at this particular point.

I agree, again. His not being accurate allows his enemies to discredit his points, though they be valid, nonetheless.
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Postby Barko » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:33 am

Rockerduck, let´s forget about Moore. It stands to reason that even adjusting to per capita, USA has A LOT more gun killings than Europe! It HAS to be so when guns are sold freely in USA and forbidden in Europe! Don´t you see that? You can come with all kinds of arguments, but facts are facts! It has been common knowledge for years - really! I´m sorry if I sound harsh, but you keep questioning the facts...
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Postby Robb_K » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:45 am

I live there half the year (for many years). I have been held at gunpoint, heard a shooting (two doors away), and don't go out at night in USA. None of the above fits my experience in Europe or Canada in similar time periods.
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Postby Rockerduck » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:22 pm

Barko wrote:Rockerduck, let´s forget about Moore. It stands to reason that even adjusting to per capita, USA has A LOT more gun killings than Europe! It HAS to be so when guns are sold freely in USA and forbidden in Europe! Don´t you see that? You can come with all kinds of arguments, but facts are facts! It has been common knowledge for years - really! I´m sorry if I sound harsh, but you keep questioning the facts...

Uh... I just said I believe Rob, didn't I? I just said Moore didn't tell the whole truth.

But let me just play devil's advocate here. Where are these facts you speak of? Where can I find reliable statistics? You say something is this or that way, because "it HAS to be"? That's not really good argumentation, I'm sorry.
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Postby Barko » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:47 am

Rockerduck wrote:
Barko wrote:Rockerduck, let´s forget about Moore. It stands to reason that even adjusting to per capita, USA has A LOT more gun killings than Europe! It HAS to be so when guns are sold freely in USA and forbidden in Europe! Don´t you see that? You can come with all kinds of arguments, but facts are facts! It has been common knowledge for years - really! I´m sorry if I sound harsh, but you keep questioning the facts...

Uh... I just said I believe Rob, didn't I? I just said Moore didn't tell the whole truth.

But let me just play devil's advocate here. Where are these facts you speak of? Where can I find reliable statistics? You say something is this or that way, because "it HAS to be"? That's not really good argumentation, I'm sorry.

Well, to me it´s like asking for evidence that the earht is round. It goes without saying. It´s the same with gun killings in the US versus gun killings in Europe. If someone asked me for evidence that the earth is round, I would tell him to go Google it for himself if he would´nt take my (and other people´s) word for it. I don´t mind that you want to play devil´s avocado (pun intended), just don´t expect me to spend time searching for reports and statistics on the net and in the library in order to satisfy your scepticism. I just stated common facts. If you don´t believe it´s a common fact, then why don´t YOU spend time researcing it? If I say the earth is round and you say it´s really not good argumentation, then you´re probably right. But I really don´t feel like it´s my job to spend time and effort trying to convince you of a common fact. If you think that gun killings in the US and Europe is about the same (where´s your evidence? :)), then it´s ok with me. I hope you can understand my point of view...
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Postby Robb_K » Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:19 am

Rockerduck wrote:I wonder how that low moral and angry and frustrated people can be explained when it's one of the most religious countries in the world. (Or maybe it can, because religious people often tend to 'talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk'. But that's another debate.)

The so-called "religious right" allows the large firms in USA to use mostly part-time workers, so those firms can make gigantic profits while paying absolute minimum wages, and also therefore not being required to pay for medical insurance for them. The adult workers (many with families) don't make enough to live, so they must work 2 or 3 jobs (and job shifts (12-18 hours per day) just so their family can have a roof over their heads and eat). They were also behind President Bush and his war in Iraq. Many of those same types of professed Christians were against admitting Jewish refugees from Germany into USA between 1933 and 1942 (allowing many people to be murdered), So called religious Christians and Moslems have been murdering my people for 1400 to 2000 years (in the name of God). So-called religious Jews have murdered Palestinians, often killing innocent people (also in the name of religion).

A lot of what we see from the so-called religious leaders is money-grubbing and hunger for power. Most of them seem more like hypocrits to me than acetics like Mother Theresa or Mahatma Ghandi. The political right wing in USA gives giant tax breaks and monetary help to rich multi-national firms and industrialists and doesn't allow the US public to have proper education, health care and meet social needs. It is supposed to be a first-World country, but there are millions of homeless and starving people there. You don't see such things in The Netherlands or Denmark. The religious right (Christian evangelists and most of the other highly organised Christian religious groups, are in the political rightist camp in USA.

IS the USA one of the most religious countries in The World? I wouldn't say so! Are they Christian like Adolph Hitler was? They certainly don't act much upon what their Jewish ("deity") was supposed to have taught ("Love thy neighbour as thyself". Many, many of them are racist. Now they are very anti-Moslem and Arab.

If all the so-called "Christians" in USA would live the way their "savior" preached, USA would be a decent nation.
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Postby Rockerduck » Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:36 pm

Barko wrote:Well, to me it´s like asking for evidence that the earht is round. It goes without saying. It´s the same with gun killings in the US versus gun killings in Europe. If someone asked me for evidence that the earth is round, I would tell him to go Google it for himself if he would´nt take my (and other people´s) word for it. I don´t mind that you want to play devil´s avocado (pun intended), just don´t expect me to spend time searching for reports and statistics on the net and in the library in order to satisfy your scepticism. I just stated common facts. If you don´t believe it´s a common fact, then why don´t YOU spend time researcing it? If I say the earth is round and you say it´s really not good argumentation, then you´re probably right. But I really don´t feel like it´s my job to spend time and effort trying to convince you of a common fact. If you think that gun killings in the US and Europe is about the same (where´s your evidence? :)), then it´s ok with me. I hope you can understand my point of view...

I understand that you're a coward who tries to weasel himself out of giving evidence for the claims he makes. No, of course it's not the same as questioning the fact that the earth is round. Gun-related incidents are about statistics and numbers and data. That has nothing to do with a concept like 'common knowledge'. And after a bad comparison and bragging about facts that are not facts untill you back them up, you try to put the burden of proof on me. But that's not how a discussion should be. The person making a claim has to back it up. You dissapoint me. We're on the same opinion, but you are incredibly arrogant and hostile when somebody calls you upon the fact that you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your claims. And that makes you so weak that, if you want to convince somebody who holds a different opinion, will never believe you.
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Postby Rockerduck » Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:42 pm

Rob, I know what you're talking about. I agree with everything. I have been following American politics and society for a very long time. I know everything about the christian conservative right. Jerry Falwell, Ted Haggard, you name them, I'll insult them. ;) But what I meant to say was, that around 80% of the people in the US calls themselves Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... ted_States
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Postby Egg » Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:18 pm

Rockerduck wrote:No, of course it's not the same as questioning the fact that the earth is round.

Is the world round? Have people really walked on the moon? Egg would like to point out that this round earth and moonwalking is all from hearsay for most people. We haven't witnessed it ourselves. How can we prove the world is round and people have walked on the moon? By reading a book? Looking at a photo?

Egg just likes to emphasize how much we "know" is simply just what others have reported us. Egg thinks that in essence it might be worthwhile to question if the earth really is round. If no one would have questioned the earlier common fact that the world is flat, we would never have had the round earth theory.
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Postby Barko » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:39 pm

Rockerduck wrote:
Barko wrote:Well, to me it´s like asking for evidence that the earht is round. It goes without saying. It´s the same with gun killings in the US versus gun killings in Europe. If someone asked me for evidence that the earth is round, I would tell him to go Google it for himself if he would´nt take my (and other people´s) word for it. I don´t mind that you want to play devil´s avocado (pun intended), just don´t expect me to spend time searching for reports and statistics on the net and in the library in order to satisfy your scepticism. I just stated common facts. If you don´t believe it´s a common fact, then why don´t YOU spend time researcing it? If I say the earth is round and you say it´s really not good argumentation, then you´re probably right. But I really don´t feel like it´s my job to spend time and effort trying to convince you of a common fact. If you think that gun killings in the US and Europe is about the same (where´s your evidence? :)), then it´s ok with me. I hope you can understand my point of view...

I understand that you're a coward who tries to weasel himself out of giving evidence for the claims he makes. No, of course it's not the same as questioning the fact that the earth is round. Gun-related incidents are about statistics and numbers and data. That has nothing to do with a concept like 'common knowledge'. And after a bad comparison and bragging about facts that are not facts untill you back them up, you try to put the burden of proof on me. But that's not how a discussion should be. The person making a claim has to back it up. You dissapoint me. We're on the same opinion, but you are incredibly arrogant and hostile when somebody calls you upon the fact that you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your claims. And that makes you so weak that, if you want to convince somebody who holds a different opinion, will never believe you.

Coward and weak? (right - fuck you too) For not wanting to go to libraries etc. to satisfy you? If I had the staticstics next to me I would post them (and then you would probably start to question them), but you can´t expect me (or anyone) to invest hours of their spare time. To ME it´s common knowledge (and to Rob and most people). To you it apparently is not common knowledge. But let´s just say that you´re right and I´m wrong and I´m sorry that I expressed my opinion on this subject without having statistics to back it up with, but it´s the first time anybody in any forum has required scientific evidence from me. Btw, do you also demand that from Rob and the other forum members when they express an opinion? If so, fair enough. If not, then why shall I?
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Postby Robb_K » Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:08 am

Rockerduck wrote:Rob, I know what you're talking about. I agree with everything. I have been following American politics and society for a very long time. I know everything about the christian conservative right. Jerry Falwell, Ted Haggard, you name them, I'll insult them. ;) But what I meant to say was, that around 80% of the people in the US calls themselves Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... ted_States

From what I've seen living in USA from 1959-1972 and part-time 1973-1987, and 1995-2007, I'd say that if 80% of USA's population who profess to be Christians are living by the tenets of their savior, and The Ten Commandments, I'm meeting a VERY, VERY unrepresentative group of Americans. The basic population is similar to the basic European population in nature, but The Europeans are still behaving better on average, NOT because they are better people, but because they have better social systems and had less riches and power. Every country has friendly and unfriendly, helpful and destructive, moral and immoral, selfish and unselfish people (probably in about the same proportion (a biological result).

80% of the population doesn't live by The Ten Commandments, and doesn't go to church every Sunday. MOST of them in the Northern states and the big cities only go to church on Easter and weddings and funerals, and a fair amount on Christmas. otherwise, they are mainly secular. That is very true of people I know in Belgium and France. They are said to be Catholics, but are VERY secular in their every day lives (and even morals).
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Postby Robb_K » Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:11 am

Egg wrote:
Rockerduck wrote:No, of course it's not the same as questioning the fact that the earth is round.

Is the world round? Have people really walked on the moon? Egg would like to point out that this round earth and moonwalking is all from hearsay for most people. We haven't witnessed it ourselves. How can we prove the world is round and people have walked on the moon? By reading a book? Looking at a photo?

Egg just likes to emphasize how much we "know" is simply just what others have reported us. Egg thinks that in essence it might be worthwhile to question if the earth really is round. If no one would have questioned the earlier common fact that the world is flat, we would never have had the round earth theory.

Egg, you are so right with this point of view. It is exactly as mine is (EVEN as a scientist!). I am DEFINITELY not fully convinced that The US space programme actually placed humans on The Moon. And, the current theory given the most creedance by scientists is that The Earth is NOT round, but "pear shaped".
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Postby Robb_K » Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:32 am

Barko wrote:Coward and weak? (right - fuck you too) For not wanting to go to libraries etc. to satisfy you? If I had the staticstics next to me I would post them (and then you would probably start to question them), but you can´t expect me (or anyone) to invest hours of their spare time. To ME it´s common knowledge (and to Rob and most people). To you it apparently is not common knowledge. But let´s just say that you´re right and I´m wrong and I´m sorry that I expressed my opinion on this subject without having statistics to back it up with, but it´s the first time anybody in any forum has required scientific evidence from me. Btw, do you also demand that from Rob and the other forum members when they express an opinion? If so, fair enough. If not, then why shall I?

Now, now, fellas, there's no need for namecalling. We are all busy people, and NOT ONE of us wants to be the one to spend valuable time researching that information. But, let's keep this a civil and respectful forum. We don't want to scare potential regulars away by bickering. To continue with this, we'll just have to wait until one of us bites the bullet, and does the research.
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Postby Egg » Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:58 pm

Robb_K wrote:[Earth round? Have people walked on the moon?] Egg, you are so right with this point of view. It is exactly as mine is (EVEN as a scientist!). I am DEFINITELY not fully convinced that The US space programme actually placed humans on The Moon. And, the current theory given the most creedance by scientists is that The Earth is NOT round, but "pear shaped".

What is science? On Dutch McDrake, Rockerduck has told somewhere that in science a majority is important. But what about the minority then?
Could science be a form of religion? Could science of the past have become religions of today?

Why is Robb_K not fully conviced that The US space programme actually placed humans on the moon? Egg has read interesting theories about the moon journey being faked. If Egg remembers correctly, there was a news report in recent years telling that the colour film of the moon journey has vanished, and that this gives sceptical people a reason to be more sceptical.
But then, why would people have risked such a hoax to be revealed? Why would people have in fact not been on the moon?
And if people haven't been on the moon, how do we know there's actually been a (robot) journey to Mars?

Robb_K wrote:Now, now, fellas, there's no need for namecalling.

Guns for sale! Guns for sale! No need for namecalling when we have guns. Let the bullets do the talking here. (pow! pow!) Barko and Rockerduck should have a duel on this. The one who survives is right.

It's a matter of history that the winner is often right. The information of the looser often gets destroyed. Egg has read that a lot of history we know is only one side of a story.
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Postby Rockerduck » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:55 pm

Barko wrote:Coward and weak? (right - fuck you too)

Oh, nice. Very nice. See, I told you you are hostile? Try arguments for a change. Or an anger management therapy.

Barko wrote:For not wanting to go to libraries etc. to satisfy you?

No, for not going to libraries to check out whether what you're saying is true, for yourself. And you don;t have to go to a library. Just use Mr. Google, as I did.

Barko wrote:If I had the staticstics next to me I would post them (and then you would probably start to question them),

I would only question them if they came from an unconfirmed hobby-site. But you know, questioning statistics and sources is something *everybody* should do. If not, we turn into sheep, who believe anything we've been told. That has even lead us (you) into a war in Iraq.

Barko wrote:but you can´t expect me (or anyone) to invest hours of their spare time.

I don't expect you to invest hours. Surely you can find evidence that backs up your claims quickly, if you're so sure.

Barko wrote:To ME it´s common knowledge (and to Rob and most people).

What's "most people"? Wikipedia describes those kind of constructions as 'weasel words':

Wikipedia wrote:Generalization by means of grammatical quantifiers (few, many, people, etc.), as well as the passive voice ("it has been decided") are also part of weasel wording. Generalization in this way helps speakers or writers disappear in the crowd and thus disown responsibility for what they have said.

* "People say…" (Who are the people who say it?)
* "I heard that..." (Whom did you hear it from? How, where and when did they learn of it?)
* "Experience shows that..." (Whose experience? What was the experience? How does it demonstrate this?)
* "Few of those who knew the truth have spoken up for …" (Which people knew the truth and should have spoken up?)
* "It has been decided that..." (Who decided?)
* "It turns out that..." (How, and why, did it "turn out" that way?)
* "Popular wisdom is/has it, that..." (Can this be clarified? When it was first used, might help, even though we might not find the person any more, who first used it).

In the following phrases, an indication of where or how the stories started would have removed the weaseling effect:

* "It has been mentioned that..." (Who mentioned it?)
* "Rumour has it that..." (Where was this rumour published or spread? Who is included in the group that is just about anybody?)
* "There is evidence that..." (What evidence? Where is it? What are the details?)
* "A source states that..." or "There is an accusation that..." (What is the source? Is it reliable?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_words

And to YOU it's 'common knowledge'? So if YOU say there are purple elephants, that means there ARE purple elephants?

Barko wrote:But let´s just say that you´re right and I´m wrong and I´m sorry that I expressed my opinion on this subject without having statistics to back it up with, but it´s the first time anybody in any forum has required scientific evidence from me.

Then you have been visiting forums that are either about totally non-political or non-scientific subjects, or those fora were populated with the kind of 'sheep' I was referring to.

Barko wrote:Btw, do you also demand that from Rob and the other forum members when they express an opinion? If so, fair enough. If not, then why shall I?

If Rob or any other member makes a claim that requires back up, I'll ask for back up. I made a statement about Christianity in the US en I backed it up. Why can't you do the same?
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