Disney Comics Mailing List (DCML)

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Postby Rockerduck » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:56 pm

Spin it anyway you want, but the facts Daniel states in his e-mail are 100% true, and there's no way to refute that. And I stand by what I said: it's só obvious it was hold back because of the opinion Rosa and his fans hold about 'The magic hourglass'. It's a shame that one can't even post a simple e-mail about Disney-comics these days without getting censored. When I read such things it makes me wonder: "what is the world coming to?" Let people speak free. And if people see such a list of facts and examples straight out of comic books as attacks, the problem lies with thém, and not with the person who posted the list.
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Postby Daniel73 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:02 am

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:49:16 +0200
From: Per Starb?ck
Subject: Re: DCML Digest, Vol 41, Issue 30
To: dcml

Replies to a couple of messages by Dani?l van Eijmeren:

>> an internal link pointer on the DCML at:
>> http://stp.ling.uu.se/~starback/dcml/pointers.html
> The page contains dead links. For example:

It certainly does. As you can see at the bottom of the page it is last
updated in 2001, so like a big part of the web it is severely
outdated. Like many other old parts of the web it can sometimes be
partly useful anyway, so it's generally better to keep it than to
remove it completely. If nothing else, the state of affairs in 2001
can be rather interesting to see now. If you just want fresh
information you can certainly find it elsewhere. Old parts of the web
will fade away by being less and less googleable, so it's generally
not really a problem. I haven't checked, but I would assume that the
google ranking of the page you referred to is really low now.

(My plan when handing my Disney mailing lists over to NAFS(k) was to
hand over the accompanying web pages as well, but that hasn't happened
yet. If it ever will happen or not I don't know, or what might happen
after that in that case. At least as long as they still are with me
I don't plan on doing anything with them so you can see them as a
historical exhibit.)

> Rodney's message was "scrubbed". Is this scrubbing problem still
> going on at DCML?

I don't know. Today I updated NAFS(k)'s Mailman to the latest
version (2.1.8). Something about the "scrubbing" was mentioned in the
release notes, but I don't know if the problem you refer to has been
fixed with this. If you are interested in working on this, get in
contact with the Mailman people. I will certainly not do any
development of the list software myself, and I'm sure the same goes
for the rest of the NAFS(k) board as well, but if there is a bug in
Mailman you can help fix that will eventually be of benefit not only
for this list but for lots of other lists as well.

Dani?l has also written a lot about the moderation here and writes
several times of "The Moderator", meaning me. I introduced moderation
before I handed over the list to NAFS(k), because of an emergency
situation that you know about, so back then I was "The Moderator", but
right now we are actually two moderators from NAFS(k). If anything
really hard to judge should come up we will refer to the whole board,
but no moderation has been necessary for a long time so it doesn't
feel like a big issue. That the list should continue to be watched
like this was one of the requirements that NAFS(k) had on accepting
the list though. My personal take was that I had got enough and would
have preferred not to be involved at all anymore, partly because now
that I'm still here I guess the break hasn't been that noticeable, and
some people are still seeing it as my list. But I still thought the
continuation of the list was important enough that I preferred to be a
part of it over closing it down, and those seemed to be the only
options.

None of the above is really about Disney comics. I'm sorry about that.
I hope this will answer Dani?l's questions to his satisfaction so this
half-off-topic thread won't have to be continued.

--
Per Starb?ck

------------------------------
Daniel73
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Posts: 313
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Location: Netherlands

Postby germund » Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:44 am

Rockerduck wrote:Spin it anyway you want, but the facts Daniel states in his e-mail are 100% true, and there's no way to refute that.

I don't!

And if people see such a list of facts and examples straight out of comic books as attacks, the problem lies with thém, and not with the person who posted the list.

Correct! But at dcml it also lies with the rest of the community. It's like a war situation where a conflict between a few persons ruin everyday life for a large group of innocent people. Do have conflicts - I find disagreements basically good - but keep them away from dcml and other places where they spam the lives of people not involved. In Daniel's case, I believe the admittedly extreme moderation of his "Hourglass" message was valid - questionable yes, but valid. It was the sacrifice of free speech of *one* person on *one* forum for the sake of the entire list, with an explanation to Daniel why it was performed. If Daniel after being moderated had written to dcml that "I will put my comments on Rosa's stories and this issue on this and this webpage and continue the discussion there", that message would not have been censored. If nobody then want to listen and discuss objectively with you, you sooner or later have to accept that you disagree and spend your time doing something else. We're discussing Disney comics here - not life and death - so if you can't accept and ignore that, adjust to the situation and get a life. I suspect that some of Rosa's most dedicated fans may act irrationally defending Rosa, even when he's objectively criticized, but that's beside the point here.

Discussing it here on a forum is excellent. Interested people can choose to read the messages, others don't have to bother. And, just to make it clear, the little contact I have had with Daniel (hi Daniel) has been nothing but positive so I don't have any personal issues with him/you in this case.
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Postby Daniel73 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:40 pm

germund wrote:
And if people see such a list of facts and examples straight out of comic books as attacks, the problem lies with thém, and not with the person who posted the list.

Correct! But at dcml it also lies with the rest of the community. It's like a war situation where a conflict between a few persons ruin everyday life for a large group of innocent people. Do have conflicts - I find disagreements basically good - but keep them away from dcml and other places where they spam the lives of people not involved. In Daniel's case, I believe the admittedly extreme moderation of his "Hourglass" message was valid - questionable yes, but valid. It was the sacrifice of free speech of *one* person on *one* forum for the sake of the entire list, with an explanation to Daniel why it was performed. If Daniel after being moderated had written to dcml that "I will put my comments on Rosa's stories and this issue on this and this webpage and continue the discussion there", that message would not have been censored.

Giving a webpage address could also be seen as an attack. And the moderation also helped me, so I was afraid I would go against Per Starbäck's policy at my own risk.

At the time, I was attacked for reasons that had nothing to do with that email about the Hourglass. The email was intended as an indication and reminder what I am really interested in, a critical but fair discussion about how Barks is being treaten by creators, editors, experts and fans. And that I'd rather discuss that, heated or not, than all the accusations and personal attacks.

When people state that for years and years I've been mainly focussed about how Don Rosa treats Barks, they have a point. And ironically, the blocked email about the Hourglass would have proved just that, as 'The Magic Hourglass' has been published with a camp-fire frame-story by Gary Leach and William Van Horn. (Uncle Scrooge 341) I'm told that it was decided to answer letters that has been send by fans asking how 'The Magic Hourglass' should fit in Rosa's universe, where the story is seen as some non-existant fantasy in a fantasy. Whether this reported reasoning truely happened or not, the involvement of Leach and Van Horn shows that more people are involved in vandalizing Barks's classic 'The Magic Hourglass' as being a questionable story. A hideous crime, I'd say.

That's a topic I very much like to discuss. The way Barks's work is used and misused. On McDuck, at the Dutch section, people like Rockerduck have pointed at how wide-spread the habit is, of refering to Barks. And so I've began to conclude that it must be mainly an editorial problem of editors welcoming creators to make cross-references to other stories. Rosa being the biggest example, by refering to his own stories, some Strobl-stories and some Barks stories.

In the Belgian 'Suske en Wiske'-series by Willy Vandersteen and mainly his studio, albums often contain cross-references to other albums. Even as a kid I felt that as a way of advertising, urging readers to "collect them all". In the beginning it was quite innocent but later the album-series turned into some sort of fan-creator soap where old characters were re-used. I've heard that fans were helping through internet, some of them being rewarded with their names being mentioned in the stories.
But now it comes. Even the late Willy Vandersteen himself has appeared in one of the albums, where he's shown as being part of his own 'Fantasia'-world where the phantoms of his comic book stories live. Let's hope the so-called Barksism or Rosaïsm or whatever -ism will never go that way. Imagine Carl Barks himself talking to Scrooge... ("Hi Mr. Barks, I've been waiting for you ever since I died in 1967!")
Aaaargh! Moderate me for even suggesting that could happen to Duckburg. Then we should almost be grateful for having a Gemstone camp-fire around 'The Magic Hourglass'.

Imagine a Carl Barks with grey feather-wings, telling Miss Penny Wise that she only was a fantasy...

Horrors! Even the thought alone is against all good taste. I really have to stop for now and read a Barks story to become myself again... ;)
Daniel73
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Posts: 313
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Location: Netherlands

Postby Daniel73 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:02 pm

germund wrote:
Rockerduck wrote:Spin it anyway you want, but the facts Daniel states in his e-mail are 100% true, and there's no way to refute that.

I don't!

Thanks! How nice to have two believers who praise my "facts" for being 100% true. Har! Har!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DCML mailing list

THE COLOR OF NEPHEWS

Dan Shane
Tue Aug 1 14:15:08 CEST 2006

DANIEL WROTE:

In panel 1.7 of the raffle turkey pet story (WDC 75), one of Donald's
nephews mentions his full name and possibly also the color of his cap: "The
blue streak you see next will be Huey Duck on his way to a raffle!"

AND I OFFER:

"Blue streak" is an American idiom that signifies anything moving at such
high speed to essentially appear as a blur, so it would not matter what
color clothing the individual was wearing. He would never be considered a
streak of any color but blue.


Dan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nafsk.se/pipermail/dcml/2006-August/024390.html

More information about the DCML mailing list
Daniel73
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Location: Netherlands

Postby Daniel73 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:10 pm

Jonathan H. Gray
Tue Aug 1 12:02:39 CEST 2006

Youre being too literal. Saying that something is a "Blue streak" is one of those colorful old American phrases (still used actually) which denotes somebody who is said to be running off into the distance at lightning speed.
It doesn't at all mean that said character is actually colored or referenced to be colored blue. :)

http://nafsk.se/pipermail/dcml/2006-August/024385.html (more text)

Bob Peterson
Tue Aug 1 12:23:15 CEST 2006

That's a new one on this American, but I don't discount it. It might have been a regionalism. I've only ever heard it used as a reference to cussing. In that, "blue" is a metaphor for using vulgar language. It is also the color used when cussing so foully as to "turn the air blue."

bob peterson

http://nafsk.se/pipermail/dcml/2006-August/024388.html
Daniel73
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Location: Netherlands

Postby germund » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:14 am

Daniel73 wrote:Thanks! How nice to have two believers who praise my "facts" for being 100% true. Har! Har!

Actually, I don't! I wrote that I do not *refute* them!
germund
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Postby Daniel73 » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:19 pm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:49:16 +0200
From: Per Starb?ck
Subject: Re: DCML Digest, Vol 41, Issue 30
To: dcml

Replies to a couple of messages by Dani?l van Eijmeren:

>> an internal link pointer on the DCML at:
>> http://stp.ling.uu.se/~starback/dcml/pointers.html
> The page contains dead links. For example:

It certainly does. As you can see at the bottom of the page it is last
updated in 2001, so like a big part of the web it is severely
outdated. Like many other old parts of the web it can sometimes be
partly useful anyway, so it's generally better to keep it than to
remove it completely. If nothing else, the state of affairs in 2001
can be rather interesting to see now. If you just want fresh
information you can certainly find it elsewhere. Old parts of the web
will fade away by being less and less googleable, so it's generally
not really a problem. I haven't checked, but I would assume that the
google ranking of the page you referred to is really low now.

(My plan when handing my Disney mailing lists over to NAFS(k) was to
hand over the accompanying web pages as well, but that hasn't happened
yet. If it ever will happen or not I don't know, or what might happen
after that in that case. At least as long as they still are with me
I don't plan on doing anything with them so you can see them as a
historical exhibit.)

> Rodney's message was "scrubbed". Is this scrubbing problem still
> going on at DCML?

I don't know. Today I updated NAFS(k)'s Mailman to the latest
version (2.1.8). Something about the "scrubbing" was mentioned in the
release notes, but I don't know if the problem you refer to has been
fixed with this. If you are interested in working on this, get in
contact with the Mailman people. I will certainly not do any
development of the list software myself, and I'm sure the same goes
for the rest of the NAFS(k) board as well, but if there is a bug in
Mailman you can help fix that will eventually be of benefit not only
for this list but for lots of other lists as well.

Dani?l has also written a lot about the moderation here and writes
several times of "The Moderator", meaning me. I introduced moderation
before I handed over the list to NAFS(k), because of an emergency
situation that you know about, so back then I was "The Moderator", but
right now we are actually two moderators from NAFS(k). If anything
really hard to judge should come up we will refer to the whole board,
but no moderation has been necessary for a long time so it doesn't
feel like a big issue. That the list should continue to be watched
like this was one of the requirements that NAFS(k) had on accepting
the list though. My personal take was that I had got enough and would
have preferred not to be involved at all anymore, partly because now
that I'm still here I guess the break hasn't been that noticeable, and
some people are still seeing it as my list. But I still thought the
continuation of the list was important enough that I preferred to be a
part of it over closing it down, and those seemed to be the only
options.

None of the above is really about Disney comics. I'm sorry about that.
I hope this will answer Dani?l's questions to his satisfaction so this
half-off-topic thread won't have to be continued.

--
Per Starb?ck


------------------------------

http://nafsk.se/pipermail/dcml/2006-July/024370.html
Daniel73
Member
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:40 pm
Location: Netherlands

Postby Daniel73 » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:25 pm

- - - - - - - - - -

From: "Per Starback"
To: <dve@ .nl>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: DCML Digest, Vol 42, Issue 2

> Via Google I found this page: http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/index.html
> Is that the place to discuss Mailman, or do you have other adresseses? What
> do you recommend?

That is the address of Mailman, right. I don't recommend anything.

> I know that a few programmers are willing to write software for DCML. Maybe
> they and others are willing to do more. Important is that a lot of time and
> effort would be saved if there's direct communication with Mailman people
> and you.

No, I won't be involved in any direct communication about this. My
point was that your being discontent with some aspects of Mailman is
something you could address to the Mailman people, not to the DCML
people.

> on other software, or not running at all. That's why I want to be certain
> about the status of DCML and its software.

There is no way to be certain of the future. If you are only interested
in doing work on Mailman if you are absolutely certain that will be
used for DCML in the future, then don't do it.


- - - - - - - - - -
Daniel73
Member
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:40 pm
Location: Netherlands

Postby Daniel73 » Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:35 pm

In the years 1992 to 2005, DCML has been hosted on a server at the Uppsala university in Sweden. This gave me the impression that DCML was some sort of university project. So, I was disappointed when it moved to a fanclub, named NAFS(K).
However, as I've found out, DCML has been just a fan-network since its very beginning.

On Saturday 21 April 2007, Per Starbäck wrote in reply to me in a longer e-mail:
> I hope you will answer my questions, and that we can talk these matters
> over.

I haven't answered all your questions. Some of them are old stuff
we've been through before. Some of it are things I don't know anything
about. I have really no interest in "talking these matters over".
The time writing this is time I'd rather spend doing something else.
All that matters is:

This list is moderated. We decide how. You decide if you want to be a
part of it or not. Deal with it.

That is really all.

As part of the following e-mail, also from Saturday 21 April 2007, Starbäck wrote in reply to me:
> It never occured to me that DCML maybe could be just some private club ran
> by one person who seemingly can do just anything he/she wishes.

Not a club at all, but a mailing list, and of course I could do what I
wanted, and now NAFS(k) can do whatever it wants.

If you think everything about DCML is so bad I don't understand why
you don't just leave it. I'm almost afraid to write this, because
maybe you will think that means I'm trying to get you off the list,
or that I am forbidding you to be on the list or any such nonsense.

> Why did you announce you'd quit with DCML? Two years later you're still in
> charge.

I had hoped I could leave it totally, but it turned out I had to agree
to be one of the moderators to get enough support from the rest of the
board so that the list could be continued at all.

I want to do this as little as possible. That also means I want to use
as little time as possible writing mails like this.

Both e-mails were sent from Starbäck's "uu.se" university work address. I've friendly recommended Starbäck to stop doing that. After this, he replied me using a NAFS(k) address.

What I find disturbing is that DCML has been using the name and location of a university server, at which an employee could do what he wanted, using his work address. I find it sour that someone with such an attitude of doing what he wants, is not only telling visitors how they should behave, but also working at a government school.

I've asked Starbäck to bring me in contact with his superiors for further inquiries, but on 24 April 2007 Starbäck wrote he couldn't supply an address:
I already answered that. I don't know such an address. The University
is a big place.
There are like 6,000 people working here and around 40,000 students. Of course
there must be contact information on the web page of the university.
If you need that and can't find it the web pages are bad and you could
write the webmaster and ask why it's not to be found perhaps.

In reply to my question if Anders Hallberg is his superior at the Uppsala university, Starbäck wrote:
> Is Anders Hallberg your superior? Do I need to contact him for inquiries
> about the university's policy?

He is the Rector Magnificus of the whole university. I'm sure he
doesn't have time to correspond with individuals like that.

I'm not really sure about what you are after anyway. Are you trying to
get me in trouble for starting a mailing list at the university in
1992? Or are you trying to get me in trouble for using a mailing
address @....uu.se when writing to you about the NAFS(k) list
recently?
None of this is anything out of the ordinary. But why should I tell
you that again? Evidently you didn't believe me the last time.

I got in contact with Starbäck after he rejected my reply to the Virginia university shooting, on 18 April 2007:
Your request to the DCML mailing list

Posting of your message titled "Very OT: From a Virginia Tech
alumnus"

has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the
following reason for rejecting your request:

"Both weapon laws and the Iraq war are too controversial (and
off-topic) topics for this mailing list, so you will have to send that
reply personally instead.

/Per for NAFS(k) "

This e-mail can be found here at McDrake, under topic 'The "right to keep and bear arms"'.
http://bb.mcdrake.nl/engdisney/viewtopic.php?t=268

The fact that Starbäck thinks he could do whatever he wants, answered a lot of questions for me. I wouldn't have put much attention at his personal hobbyclub if it wouldn't have been hosted from a university. I feel being misled.
At DCML, since 2005, anything can be "moderated" for whatever reason. By people who cancel e-mails in private, and who rarely contribute e-mails themselves. Discussions at DCML are filtered in an unverifiable and irresponsible way. And when you complain they say: "Deal with it."

But why would I deal with some fanclub? I just hoped to be safe at a university.
Daniel73
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Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:40 pm
Location: Netherlands

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