COA/Inducks

places related to Disney comics, etc.

Postby Daniel73 » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:27 pm

This is a topic to freely discuss the COA search engine:
http://coa.inducks.org

What do you like? What do you dislike? Does it work for you? Is it user friendly? Do you have ideas how it could be improved?
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Postby Daniel73 » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:24 pm

When entering a code like "wdc 31", to find a story by Barks, I get an error message which tells that no stories are found.
http://coa.inducks.org//simp.php?showimage=on&d1=&d2=&d4=wdc+31&creat=&exactpg=&pagel=l&forcer=1

A lot of classic stories are unfindable by code, including famous works by Barks and Jippes, because COA only recognizes it's own codes. Even official printed codes are unfindable. This way people have to guess if the story is indexed, and what fantasy code has then been made up by the INDUCKS/COA-people.
Despite the fact that the printed codes were invented by editors to make the stories recognizable.

Personally, I think this a major bug.

For example, take the printed code "H/DD//7801". This is an offical printed code. COA doesn't find this classic story by this code, because it's indexed under a fantasy code. Without tricks it's just impossible to find "H/DD//7801".
And there are many, many more examples.
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Postby pryds » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:54 pm

I find it great that COA is discussed in public. Also, there's nothing wrong in mentioning bugs and errors in public. However, if you want the Inducks team to do something about it, I recommend to (also) mention it at the error registration system, where the people in question are much more likely to actually take notice that something is wrong (they are automatically sent an email when an error is reported).

About searching for printed codes: I agree that this ought to be possible, and this topic has actually been discussed among the indexers, but I think a conclusion was never reached. The problem is that printed codes may differ from publication to publication and from production to production, so it's hard to set up something "automatic". Unfortunately we haven't registered the printed codes for all the many, many issues that are already indexed, and it would be an enormous task to do so now -- but you never know; perhaps we will start doing it one day if we don't find a better/easier solution before that.
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Postby Sprea » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:35 am

Daniel73 wrote:For example, take the printed code "H/DD//7801". This is an offical printed code. COA doesn't find this classic story by this code, because it's indexed under a fantasy code. Without tricks it's just impossible to find "H/DD//7801".
And there are many, many more examples.

Yes, we know that, and I agree that we should made printed codes searchable too. Many (most) of them are just like the codes we use, of course, so it already works like that for them (s-, d- and b- coded stories, for example), but some were obviously unusable in a coherent database, so we had to modify them slightly and that's why some are different.

I do hope that the possibility to search through printed codes gets implemented soon, even though personally I think it's a minor issue.
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Postby Harry » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:01 am

pryds wrote:About searching for printed codes: I agree that this ought to be possible, and this topic has actually been discussed among the indexers, but I think a conclusion was never reached.

No, the conclusion is that we only need to adjust COA to search for these codes. The data is present in the "code" field.

pryds wrote:Unfortunately we haven't registered the printed codes for all the many, many issues that are already indexed

For stories in Holland (which is what Daniël mainly talks about), 99% of the printed codes are noted. Of course only when they differ largely from the Inducks storycodes.
For other countries, in many cases the Inducks codes can be derived from the printed codes when using some "smart" algorithms in COA.
Harry
 

Postby Robb_K » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:39 pm

COA is a great resource, and I'm glad it is operating. But I hate the fact that a large portion of my story credits don't show up. I wrote and drew storyboards for a lot of stories that were accepted, assigned D numbers, but shelved, when Byron Erickson took over as Chief Editor at Gutenberghus/Egmont, and saw that thzere had been a major overproduction in recent years. I had had a 22, 21,19,17 and several 10-page stories shelved, but they still appeared in the INDUCKS database. Of course, I realise that those stories would have been deleted from any database because of policy. But I don't have to like it. I also still have some stories I worked on with Jan Gulbransson, that were bought by Oberon, and assigned an H code number, and still have not been printed. They were also not listed, until I informed Inducks indexers.
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Postby Daniel73 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:03 pm

- - - - - - - - - -

From: "Daniel van Eijmeren"
To: <ddb@###.#######.uu.se>
Cc: <inducks@############.com>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: Frank

<<Although it might mean in my case that ddb just gets archived and never
read>>
<I wonder why you want a subscription like that.>

Reason why I want such a supscription is that I feel forced to, because some
here are secretive. At DCML I can follow by going to an open on-line
archive. I don't even need to subscribe there, to read discussions and
information. At DDB you are urged to join, otherwise you miss everything.
For indexing Disney comics, there's reasonably no choice other than to join
DDB.

I feel forced to be secretive by DDB's policy. The DDB policy is morally
wrong and alienating people from their Disney comics hobby. And it makes me
confused: Why on earth are the DDB people so secretive about indexing
some... Disney comics?
It's not just editors joining DDB, whispering their godly secrets into our
dreams. Another reason is that some people feel-all-too-glad about the
nepotism. And if you want to join the friendships and indexers, you are
forced to become part of the nepotism.
Disney comics are for everyone, not just for your small club with friendly
editors demanding you to stay silent, while they can say what they want. I
think you are being used then. You are captured by secrets.

Editors try to get the best out of everyone for the lowest price. What it
cheaper than getting DDB into your camp, where some freaks hide themselves
for free? I've understood money is being paid by some editors, and that this
is the mean reason why DDB is secret. Why should it be a secret if editors
kindly sponsor a project that they benefit from? They're not sponsoring the
index because they like your beautiful smile. They are sponsoring the index
because they can use it for their purposes.

On (free and open) McDuck, Dutch editors just have to fit in themselves into
public discussions. They have offered that McDuckers can contact them. For
free. So, it works to have an open forum that can also be joined by editors.
And if it works on McDuck, then why not with DDB?

COA/Inducks
http://discussion.mcduck.nl/viewtopic.php?id=33

Daniel

- - - - - - - - - -
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Postby Rockerduck » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:58 pm

What's DDB?
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Postby H.H.F » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:04 pm

Rockerduck wrote:What's DDB?

My thoughts exactly. Different from INDUCKS?
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Postby pryds » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:14 pm

Rockerduck wrote:What's DDB?

DDB was actually the old name for Inducks. It meant "Disney comics Data Base". Nowadays the term mostly refers to the mailing list that Inducks indexers use to inform each other of errors, etc. in their various parts of the Inducks database. The mail that Daniël quoted above is one that he sent to DDB recently. People have answered his accusations at DDB, but since every mail sent to the DDB is considered a private mail, I cannot quote them here.

I can only say that I can't understand why Daniël considers the DDB so secretive -- any active Inducks indexer (who is willing to read all the many very boring mails that are sent to the list) is most welcome as a subscriber -- actually I would recommend so since it is the primary means of communication between indexers. And we have had many new subscribers the recent years, mainly from countries where our indexes are not yet so complete.

To give an impression of what DDB is like, here's one of my recent mails to the list, where I notice the maintainer of the D coded stories that the current index differs (in author info) from what is printed in a Danish pocket issue -- plus I recommend adding references to a series of other stories from the story in question (as you can see, it's nothing like DCML -- interesting discussions are "banned" from there :) ):
D 2006-001 11 3 R-> -> MFe ? -- Paradise Bound
[xapp:DA,BB,DD,GO,MM,MI,US,PL,HDL] [plot:Peter Höpfner] [writ:MSw,LSw]
[framing story in 9 parts]

The Danish JB issue says [writ:PMG,CMG] -- which is correct?

Also, you might want to add [xref:D 2004-339(frame),D 2004-257(frame),I
TL 2600-1(frame),I TL 2539-1(frame),I PK 49-3(frame),I TL
2546-5(frame),I TL 2557-6(frame),D 2004-337(frame)]
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Postby pryds » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:27 pm

Robb_K wrote:But I hate the fact that a large portion of my story credits don't show up. [...] I had had a 22, 21,19,17 and several 10-page stories shelved, but they still appeared in the INDUCKS database.

I assume you mean "and several 10-page stories shelved, but they still [didn't] appear[] in the INDUCKS database"?

Since the Inducks is an unofficial database, we don't always know of unprinted stories. When we do, it is often because we have received that information from the authors themselves, or from the publishers/producers office. I am not sure from where you'd expect the Inducks to get its information about unpublished stories, if not from these sources? Therefore we will be more than happy to include information you might provide about your unpublished stories. If you will help improve the Inducks with this, you should probably contact Harry Fluks (the main coordinator) about the matter: hfl at inducks dot org.
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Postby Ole Damgaard » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:23 pm

Looks like Daniel tried trolling dcml, it didn't work, and now he is trying at ddb. Sorry, Daniel, but that is what it looks like to me. But as Thomas points out, ddb is incredibly boring and not worth it. As far as I know, it is simply a tool that indexers use to communicate about indexing. No hidden agenda there. Sure, some people are both indexers and publishers, but since this has worked fine for years, then I don't see us (almost)non-indexing readers/researchers need to have a problem with that.

Another thing: since some people dislike the anonymous posting here, allow me to reveal myself; I am (was) Supergoof, before I decided to be a member here. No more of that now.
It was pretty cool to wear red underwear and blue cape, though...I hate to let that go. :)


/the goof
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Postby Daniel73 » Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:02 am

Ole Damgaard wrote:Looks like Daniel tried trolling dcml, it didn't work, and now he is trying at ddb. Sorry, Daniel, but that is what it looks like to me.

Come on. I have contributed good ideas and suggestions, both at DCML and DDB/Inducks. If you see that as trolling, you're surely under-estimating my contributions.

Ole Damgaard wrote:But as Thomas points out, ddb is incredibly boring and not worth it. As far as I know, it is simply a tool that indexers use to communicate about indexing. No hidden agenda there. Sure, some people are both indexers and publishers, but since this has worked fine for years, then I don't see us (almost)non-indexing readers/researchers need to have a problem with that.

I don't see any agenda, hidden or not. DDB/Inducks is hidden itself. People can't just index comics without being lured into secrets they're supposed to keep, because of some editor. Maybe you like it, such a dark place. I prefer to have an open club for indexers as well. I'm giving a possibility here.

Ole Damgaard wrote:Another thing: since some people dislike the anonymous posting here, allow me to reveal myself; I am (was) Supergoof, before I decided to be a member here. No more of that now.

I don't care if you were Supergoof. On McDuck, people can stay anonymous.
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Postby pryds » Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:25 pm

Daniel73 wrote:Come on. I have contributed good ideas and suggestions, both at DCML and DDB/Inducks. If you see that as trolling, you're surely under-estimating my contributions.

I'm sure, Ole didn't refer to any good ideas or suggestions you might have contributed. There must be something else... Hmm... I wonder what that might be... Perhaps something along the same lines as:

Daniel73 wrote:People can't just index comics without being lured into secrets they're supposed to keep, because of some editor. Maybe you like it, such a dark place.

If that's not trolling, I don't know what is. It's certainly not "good ideas and suggestions".

Daniel73 wrote:I prefer to have an open club for indexers as well. I'm giving a possibility here.

I wonder why you don't mention that everyone has the possibility to contribute indexes through the online index feature of COA, without having to sign up for any "secretive" mailing lists? Perhaps because this breaks the dark image of Inducks that you're trying to create?

Daniel73 wrote:I don't care if you were Supergoof. On McDuck, people can stay anonymous.

Am I the only one who is seeing a paradox here? On McDuck.nl you can be "secretive", but on DDB you cannot?!?
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Postby Harry » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:32 am

Daniel73 wrote:Maybe you like it, such a dark place.

It's a complete mystery to me why you want to stay a member of the Inducks mailing list (such a dark place).
Harry
 

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