COA/Inducks

places related to Disney comics, etc.

Postby WB » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:32 pm

Shouldnt the moderators just be able to look at IP numbers and find out who's posting under the same names and who isn't? That'd clear up this whole "Daniel has multiple personalities" fiasco...
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Postby Ridder ter Geit » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:53 pm

Why do you people even want to know which aliasses he carries around here?
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Postby Rockerduck » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:17 pm

WB wrote:Shouldnt the moderators just be able to look at IP numbers and find out who's posting under the same names and who isn't? That'd clear up this whole "Daniel has multiple personalities" fiasco...

People who think I'm Daniel can ask moderator Sander about it. He knows Rockerduck and Daniel are two different persons. But I agree with Ridder ter Geit: why is it relevant?
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Postby Robb_K » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:44 pm

pryds wrote:
Robb_K wrote:But I hate the fact that a large portion of my story credits don't show up. [...] I had had a 22, 21,19,17 and several 10-page stories shelved, but they still appeared in the INDUCKS database.

I assume you mean "and several 10-page stories shelved, but they still [didn't] appear[] in the INDUCKS database"?

Since the Inducks is an unofficial database, we don't always know of unprinted stories. When we do, it is often because we have received that information from the authors themselves, or from the publishers/producers office. I am not sure from where you'd expect the Inducks to get its information about unpublished stories, if not from these sources? Therefore we will be more than happy to include information you might provide about your unpublished stories. If you will help improve the Inducks with this, you should probably contact Harry Fluks (the main coordinator) about the matter: hfl at inducks dot org.

Actually all of those stories WERE included in INDUCKS, but were never transferred to COA. They were removed from the database, due to Egmont's new policy.
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Postby pryds » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:31 pm

Actually all of those stories WERE included in INDUCKS, but were never transferred to COA. They were removed from the database, due to Egmont's new policy.

Egmont doesn't decide what we put in Inducks and what we don't put in Inducks. So if an artist tells us, "hey, I also made this and that story", I don't see why we can't put that in Inducks. I think what you refer to is that Egmont asked if the information that *they* provide is only being made public as the stories are published. That's how I believe the deal was, but I'm not in charge of that part of Inducks, so I can't know for sure. Anyway, no matter what, if you as an artisk tells us about your unpublished stories, I see nothing wrong in putting that information online. I will bring this up with the other indexers.
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Postby Daniel73 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:18 pm

Ridder ter Geit wrote:Sure, find all kinds of excuses to just get rid of him and his critique.

That's show the system works at DDB/Inducks. Interestingly, my additions and corrections were mostly ignored. Including Barks-indexes. Reason for ignoring the Barks-indexes was that Harry just didn't like them, mentioning rules as excuses to keep them out.

By telephone I've told Harry many ideas, and then he's interested and even enthousiastic. What a good ideas. But then he advices me to cope with some interface and so the ideas get lost. For example, in the last weeks I told Harry some ideas for COA that he really liked using, and Harry was interested in the bugs I mentioned. What happened with that information?

It's very remarkable for me to see how Harry is shooting himself in the foot. Harry finds his special limited club more interesting. There are some people who can use Harry for their purposes, including editors. Harry gets overprotected by more and more compliments, and so Harry gets quite disturbed by his "friend" Daniël who's reminding Harry of Harry's own strong lessons about bad programmers. And Daniël knows what Harry dares to say about some helpful DCML/DDB-people. Daniël knows how grumpy Harry can get about them. Just because they are too helpful.

I think this topic has shown a very interesting insight on how COA/Inducks works. There are people there who find themselves so important, that they forget the comics and the people.
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Postby Daniel73 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:40 pm

Subjects I've recently discussed with Harry by phone:

1. When entering a code like "wdc 31" at COA search, to get a story by Barks, I get:
No story found
http://coa.inducks.org//simp.php?showimage=on&d1=&d2=&d4=wdc+31&creat=&exactpg=&pagel=l&forcer=1

I've understood from Harry that this a bug which he didn't know about. Ironically, he suggested that I could use my own website when searching for Barks-stories and Barks-links at COA. In this case:
W WDC 31-05
http://coa.inducks.org/story.php/0/W+WDC++31-05
(http://www.seriesam.com/barks/comicswdc031.html#ccus_wdc0031-05)

The problem seems to be that COA doesn't search further even though it's ought to search further, so results can be incomplete.

2. Printed codes are not recognized. I've understood from Harry that this is technically a different point than what I just mentioned.

3. When searching Inducks on COA, the Outducks-scans take much time to load. The scans themselves don't belong to Inducks but always come along with the Inducks-information. Adding text-only COA-version without scans would give the possibility to search faster and with more overview on the text-information.
That would give COA two options:
- Inducks with Outducks-scans
- Inducks without Outducks-scans

4. The issues-pages don't give codes. And it's not possible to search issues by code.
http://coa.inducks.org/issue.php/x/us/WDC++31
There's a "Story code"-field at the search-machine. Adding a "Issue code" field would make COA easier to use. Especially when publication titles are much alike ("Donald Duck") or when there are many issue numbers (Dutch "Donald Duck" weekly).

5. It's difficult to find the proper, clean link to a COA-page. Espescially with the search-option the URLs contains extra additions unnecessary for direct-linking elsewhere. Using such a much too long link can look very odd.
For example:
http://coa.inducks.org/story.php/x/W+WDC++31-05//victory%20garden%20carl%20barks%20donald%20duck

But what link really should be used?
A clean link like: http://coa.inducks.org/story.php/0/W+WDC++31-05
Now it has to be derive from clicking on "Walt Disney's Comics (and Stories) 31":
http://coa.inducks.org/issue.php/x/us/WDC++31
Which means that a visitor needs quite some pre-knowledge of Inducks and COA to get the result needed: a clean link to a COA-page.

I suggested to Harry to give the clean link for each COA-page on the COA-page itself, so that visitors can easily copy it. This already happens at sites like http://www.youtube.com, where proper links are given to copy.
For example:
Muppets - Mahna Mahna
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7vvdOGwPu4

The page gives the following data:
Tags muppets mahna muppet show
URL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7vvdOGwPu4
Embed <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/M7vvdOGwPu4"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/M7vvdOGwPu4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

And thanks to this data it's easy to link to a particular YouTube-page.

6. The embed function might be a nice feature to include COA on websites elsewhere, for example on McDuck. But that's a new point.
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Postby Daniel73 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:07 pm

Of the story '[url]Race to the South Seas[/url]', at least two different versions exist:

version 1
art and story by Carl Barks, printed in 'Boys' and Girls' March of Comics Giveaways # 41'

version 2
- art based on bad xeroxes of "version 1", by Daan Jippes, reprinted many times. Redrawn directly into the Dutch language (as Jippes usually or always) did. In the Carl Barks Library, this is visible in panel 2.4, where the name "Dagobert" appears on the lawyer's note instead of "Scrooge". In panel 8.2, the name "Kwaak" appears on the boat instead of "Quack". Dialogue is taken from the original comic or relettered, most likely both.
Originally, the natives all had black hair (except the mayor on page 14) while Jippes left their hair blank. Besides this, the story has no (intended) differences with the original.

Recently, both versions have been used for Walt Disney Treasures 1. As COA mentions: "restored from Jippes reink, with much of original Barks art reinstated".
This means this version is a mix-up of Jippes and Barks. And so I look at it as a changed Jippes-version.

As the two versions of 'Race to the South Seas' are really two different drawn versions each having (had) its own art, I suggest each versions should have a code of its own. Something like:
- Barks's version: W MOC 41-01
- Jippes's version: H 7...... (Dutch)

At this moment, Inducks doesn't make a distinction. And so its often overlooked that Barks's version has only been printed once, in 1949, and that most people have never seen it.

On my website I haven't made the principal distinction between the versions so far. But it's among my plans.
http://www.seriesam.com/barks/comicsgwmoc.html#ccus_gw_moc0041-01
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Postby Daniel73 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:59 pm

In my previous message, the link to 'Race to the South Seas' doesn't work as I forgot to fill in the url:
http://coa.inducks.org/story.php/x/W+MOC++41-01

An principal distinction I already make is in the different versions of Barks's script-only stories like 'Pawns of the Loup Garou'

version 1
Pawns of the Loup Garou [pencil script]
Inducks: ---
Art: ---
Pencil: Carl Barks
Script: Carl Barks
published in The Carl Barks Library - Set II (monochrome)
http://www.seriesam.com/barks/art_dsr.html#awdrs_dd0117-01

version 2
Pawns of the Loup Garou [Western's version];
Inducks: W DD 117-01
Pencil: Tony Strobl
Ink: John Liggera
Script: Carl Barks
published in Donald Duck 117
http://www.seriesam.com/barks/comicsdd0070.html#ccus_dd0117-01

version 3
Pawns of the Loup Garou [remake]
Inducks: H 98135
Art: Daan Jippes
Script: Carl Barks
published in Donald Duck 1999-03 and Donald Duck 1999-04
http://www.seriesam.com/barks/comicseunl.html#cceu_nl_ddw199903-01

Especially with a difficult case like Junior Woodchuck-story 'Be Leery of Lake Eerie', the distinction comes out handy. The pencil script of that story has an alternate ending by Barks, and the two versions have been drawn in at least six different versions:
1. Be Leery of Lake Eerie [pencil script] (...)
2. Be Leery of Lake Eerie [pencil script - alternate sequence] (...)
3. Be Leery of Lake Eerie [Western's version] (W JW 17-01)
4. Be Leery of Lake Eerie [Italian version] (I WDP 2-B)
5. Be Leery of Lake Eerie [Danish version] (D D 2002-023)
6. Be Leery of Lake Eerie [Danish version - alternate sequence] (...)

On request by editor Byron Erickson, Jippes has drawn both the alternate ending and the original ending. (Is that correct?)

On my website I haven't made the distinction between Jippes's two versions and Barks's two versions, and it immediately gets messy.
Summing up these versions, the distinction is obvious. So that's why I'm thinking of adding overview-pages to my website, whenever there are multiple versions. Maybe that could be an idea for COA/Inducks, too. It would help divide different versions.

Preferably I would like to see an index/overview giving an impression on the production method. At COA/Inducks some preliminaries are indexed. But not these pencil scripts, even though most of them have been published as pencil scripts, in for example the Carl Barks Library.
Using my "Guidebook"-data it's easy to index these pencil scripts into Inducks. There is a data-connection between DVEGEN and Inducks, so it's just a matter of conversion.
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Postby Daniel73 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:15 pm

COA/Inducks gives information on when a work was first published.

For example:

Story code: W WDC 31-05
Title: The Victory Garden
Date of first publication: April 1943
http://coa.inducks.org/story.php/0/W+WDC++31-05

What was the title of this first publication? In this case the answer can easily be found in the list of publications: Walt Disney's Comics (and Stories) 31.
But there are many other cases when the date of first publication are close or identical, which makes it hard to find out on which publication the date is based.

My suggestion is to identify the title of the first publication:

Story code: W WDC 31-05
Title: The Victory Garden
Date of first publication: April 1943
Title of first publication: Walt Disney's Comics (and Stories) 31
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Postby ramapith » Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:20 pm

Daniel73 wrote:On request by editor Byron Erickson, Jippes has drawn both the alternate ending and the original ending. (Is that correct?)

Yes.
Jippes' version of the alternate ending has been presented online by Ehapa in Germany:
http://www.ehapa.de/comicnews/barks_03.html
This is its only public appearance that I am aware of.
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Postby Harry » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:15 am

For the occasional reader of this topic:

Daniel73 wrote:Interestingly, my additions and corrections were mostly ignored. Including Barks-indexes. Reason for ignoring the Barks-indexes was that Harry just didn't like them, mentioning rules as excuses to keep them out.

You'll probably read a lot more of nonsense like this on this forum. Daniël seems to forget that Inducks is a cooperation of many people. He thinks that I can decide everything myself, and then is angry at me when I don't.
And he is also angry when I don't do exactly what he wants.

Daniel73 wrote:By telephone I've told Harry many ideas, and then he's interested and even enthousiastic. What a good ideas. But then he advices me to cope with some interface and so the ideas get lost.

As I wrote, sometimes other people are against an idea. And sometimes ideas are not as good as they appeared in the beginning. And sometimes it just takes an awful long time before an idea is implemented.

Daniel73 wrote:I think this topic has shown a very interesting insight on how COA/Inducks works.

It basically gives an insight about how Daniël thinks it works.
I have given up on explaining things to him. He only listens to what he wants to hear.
He gets angrier at me every day. I'm not interested anymore in continuous fights with him.

There are some good ideas in his postings here. But the way Daniël communicates them is not encouraging me to actually do something with his ideas.
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Postby Daniel73 » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:43 am

Harry wrote:You'll probably read a lot more of nonsense like this on this forum. Daniël seems to forget that Inducks is a cooperation of many people. He thinks that I can decide everything myself, and then is angry at me when I don't.
And he is also angry when I don't do exactly what he wants.

Shall I describe how angry Harry can get, how Harry can rant and how stubborn he can be? Communication with Harry is almost impossible because Harry thinks he knows what "neutral people" think, even in cases that involve Harry himself. And don't dare to protest, because Harry can be rude and very selfish, only thinking of what he finds important for himself.

Ask Harry to pick up a Barks-book ('His Life and Times') in a shop in Germany and he keeps it for himself. And when I complain Harry tells he might give it if... I learn how to behave.
Then Harry finds it strange that I answer him that I find him a scary man. Then Harry breaks the connection. And so I hope that Harry will be very happy with that book. I don't want it anymore. My fun in owning that book is spoiled.
Just to keep some book that he was asked to pick up for me, Harry would destroy our friendship.
Harry doesn't seem to understand that I find such behaviour immoral.

Without internet Harry would still be in the desert, begging for attention in a comic book shop, as he did 16 years ago when meeting me when I was 16. I found Harry's behaviour so remarkable and intrusive that I first tried to just get rid of him, despite his knowlegde on Barks. But Harry insisted we should exchange addresses and I was too perplexed to just say no. So, I think Harry should watch his words when complaining about difficult people. Harry is very difficult himself.

I've always tried to get along with Harry, despite his difficult sides. I've had a lot of patience with Harry since I've met him. Unfortunately, Harry doesn't realise that at all.

Harry wrote:I have given up on explaining things to him. He only listens to what he wants to hear.
He gets angrier at me every day. I'm not interested anymore in continuous fights with him.

Harry, I can say exactly the same about you. You easily get very angry, but the problem is that you see it as a "neutral". Problem with you is that you don't realise how difficult you can be.

I've tried my best to help with COA/Inducks, but so far there isn't even a manual or an overview where people should be. Harry has told me some vague directions and that's it. COA/Inducks could be a good search machine but the organisation doesn't work. COA/Inducks is made by people who can start up programmes and sites, but they rarely use the facilities themselves.
COA is below Harry's quality standard. I've seen Harry getting angry about a similar site. But I didn't realise that only Harry has the right the get angry, as "neutral people" would say.

Harry wrote:There are some good ideas in his postings here. But the way Daniël communicates them is not encouraging me to actually do something with his ideas.

The way Harry communiucates and behaves is not encouraging to invite him as a close friend, which is the reason why I always kept a certain distance. The way Harry behaves like a "friend" is no friendship at all.
Harry has called me a friend, or even of one of his best friends, but I don't want such a "friend". There have been several incidents in which Harry showed a terrible side of himself that he himself doesn't want to know about. Some people have seen with amazement how Harry can misbehave.

For me, Harry is a man who has similar interests. And it's only those interests that interest me. So, Harry should tell if he wants to continue helping with my project DVEGEN. And if he doesn't then he doesn't.
DVEGEN is important to me, but I don't want friendship be bought with it. At this moment I feel being a slave of Harry's "friendship". That's a reason to try to get out of DVEGEN. I simply can't stand Harry's conditions for "friendship" any longer.
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Postby Daniel73 » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:53 am

Daniel73 wrote:But I didn't realise that only Harry has the right the get angry, as "neutral people" would say.

Should be: But I didn't realise that only Harry has the right to get angry, as "neutral people" would say.

So far I have never kicked Harry out anywhere, even when I had reason to. But Harry, on the contrary, can decide what he wants. And the way Harry treated me last week has proved what scientists already know. When humans can play the boss in an isolated club, they tend to misuse their power.
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Postby Rockerduck » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:12 pm

Daniel73 wrote:Ask Harry to pick up a Barks-book ('His Life and Times') in a shop in Germany and he keeps it for himself. And when I complain Harry tells he might give it if... I learn how to behave.
Then Harry finds it strange that I answer him that I find him a scary man. Then Harry breaks the connection. And so I hope that Harry will be very happy with that book. I don't want it anymore. My fun in owning that book is spoiled.
Just to keep some book that he was asked to pick up for me, Harry would destroy our friendship.
Harry doesn't seem to understand that I find such behaviour immoral.

Without internet Harry would still be in the desert, begging for attention in a comic book shop, as he did 16 years ago when meeting me when I was 16. I found Harry's behaviour so remarkable and intrusive that I first tried to just get rid of him, despite his knowlegde on Barks. But Harry insisted we should exchange addresses and I was too perplexed to just say no. So, I think Harry should watch his words when complaining about difficult people. Harry is very difficult himself.

How disgusting to place something like this on a (Disney) Internet forum. What do these private encounters between you and Harry have to do with COA/Inducks or even Ducks in general? What's the use in revealing these kind of things, other than pure blackening? I say this is trolling in the worst kind of way. Why should we all have to read about your personal pet peeves with Harry? Why not talk this out with Harry himself? Is it your life-mission to make Harry look bad, or something? I can't think of anything else.

When this comic forum was set up, it was supposed to be a fun new, fresh forum where we could discuss Disney Ducks. But within a few months, it has already become the personal fighting place of Daniel. First under the name of Egg, you fought with me and Stephan, and now you're fighting with Harry. Why can't a forum with you on it never have any peace?

You know a lot about Barks and Rosa and that's why it's interesting to have you on a message board. You also stay in contact with several Dutch Disney artists, which is also valuable. But what use has that if you're constantly fighting and solving personal matters that don't belong here?

(And before some wise-cracking 'Cubic acres' or other guest has a comment on my behaviour: first check out in how many fights I was, and in how many Daniel also was. That must say something...)
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