Music general

subjects that are really off-topic

Postby Daniel73 » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:10 am

Topic devoted to music.
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Postby Daniel_73 » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:25 am

Continuation of a discussion with Stephan, from August 2006.
http://bb.mcdrake.nl/engdisney/viewtopic.php?p=1394#p1394
http://bb.mcdrake.nl/engdisney/viewtopic.php?p=1582#p1582

My "Daniel73"-profile turned to moderating on 15 October 2006. Since then I rather don't use that profile for discussions that have nothing to do with moderating/maintaining.

2006-08-22 12:36:55, Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:I have two CDs of the Peppers. 'Blood Sugar' (with 'Under the Bridge') and the previous one, 'By the Way'. I don't know if I will buy 'Stadium Arcadium', because I think Anthony Kiedis' voice isn't interesting enough to have more CDs of the Peppers.

I’ve also got a ‘Greatest Hits’ CD, with songs like ‘Under the Bridge’, ‘Otherside’ and ‘Californication’. I wouldn’t buy another Red Hot Chilli Peppers CD neither, because I think their best songs are on this Hits CD.
But if they make a new CD, I would think about buying it.

I like 'Give it Away' very much, with the backward guitar solo by Frusciante, and I like Kiedis's voice in it.

Red Hot Chili Peppers - Give It Away
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56cW66dGamY

Stephan wrote:Indeed I think Kiedis’ voice gets quite boring after hearing it for 28 songs. But I really like his singing on the songs I’ve named before, especially on ‘Snow ((hey oh))’.
I think the songs I don’t like are boring because of Anthony, because he sings to monotone or without much variation.

That's the same with me. If only there would be a button to turn off his voice there.
Also in general, I think it would be nice if artists and groups would release instrumental versions of their records, without vocals.

Stephan wrote:Another thing I don’t like with the Peppers is the volume of Chad’s drumming. He is technically a good drummer, but the snare drum is often too loud. It makes me want to turn the volume up to hear the other music, but then of course the drums get louder too.

Now you say, that's what I dislike about Frusciante's 'Water'. The drums are not just loud, the sound itself is hulking. And cold.
In 'Give it Away' the drums are on the background, but still they are sounding too loud, overuling the warm sound of the bass and the guitars. :|

2006-10-22 22:18:44, Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:John Frusciante - I Feel Love

Indeed a high falsetto. John Frusciante definitely can sing besides playing guitar.
Though I'm not sure, after hearing the songs on 'Stadium Arcadium' a couple of times, there're quite a lot on which I like Kiedis' voice too. Some songs are really ruined because of his monotone or false voice, like 'Hump De Bump', 'Torture Me', 'Readymade' and 'Storm In Your Teacup', but some are really great, I think. I really like the vocals on i.e. 'Slow Cheetah' (as well as Frusciante's acoustic guitarplay), 'Com'n Girl', '21st Century'. Also the endig of the last song on the second CD, 'Death of a Martian' is really weird, but I like it. The lyrics:

Let's bow our heads And let the trumpets blow
Our girl is gone God bless her little soul
(She's got sword in case
Tho this is not her lord incase
The one who can't afford to face
Her image is restored to grace.
Disappeared. No trace. Musky tears. Suitcase. The down turn brave
Little burncub bearcareless turnip snare
Rampages pitch color pages...
Down and out but not in Vegas.
Disembarks and disengages.
No loft. Sweet pink canary cages plummet pop dewskin fortitude
For the sniffing black noses that snort and allude
To dangling trinkets that mimic the dirt cough go drink its.
It's for you. Blue battered naval town slip kisses delivered by duck
Muscles and bottlenosed grifters arrive in time to catch the late show.
It's a beehive barrel race.
A shehive stare and chase wasted feature who tried and failed to reach her.
Embossed beneath a box in the closet that's lost.
The kind that you find when you mind your own mysteries.
Shiv sister to the quickness before it blisters into the newmorning milk blanket.
Your ilk is funny to the turnstyle touch bunny who's bouquet set a course for bloom without decay.
Get you broom and sweep the echoes of yesternights fallen freckles... away...)

To be honest, I can't make much out of it. If anything.
It could be willfull ranting. Or some poetry that I don't get. (Or both.)

On YouTube there's a recording put under "Zim clips":

Red Hot Chili Peppers - Death Of A Martian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KARjpr3X108
- - - - -
InvaderZIMMY: Finally..Zim clips.
Song:Death Of A Martian-Red Hot Chili Peppers
Edit:Okay. I get this song was made for Flea's dog , Martian , alright , please stop complaining about it though. I didn't know that when I first made it. I had just gone by it saying MARTIAN. Alright. As in alien.Sorry for being so far off topic. ...
- - - - -

Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:It's a crime U2 hasn't released this song on CD. (Or did they?) It's one of the U2 songs I like the most.

They haven’t released ‘Celebration’ on CD. Maybe they will someday. November next month U2 will release a new ‘Best of’ CD with 16 older songs and two new ones (cover of ‘The Saints are Coming’ by the Skids and a new song called ‘Window on the Sky’). I hope they’ll put unknown songs such as ‘a Celebration’ on it, because I don’t really know a lot of U2-songs which aren’t released on CD’s.
I don’t really know why they haven’t released this song on CD. All I’ve read about it was something in a book about the meaning of U2’s lyrics. I believe Bono was accused of facistic ideas on base of the part: ‘I believe in third world war, I believe in the atomic bomb’. He didn’t meant it that way. He replied by saying that people should read the more important following line ‘But they won’t overpower me’.

What will be the difference with the 2CD they released in about 1998? I doubt that a 'Best of' CD will include rare gems. On DVD there's only a compilation of videos from the 1990s, if I'm not mistaken. U2 doesn't look very fond of diving into rarities of their past.

Also missing on CD is their EP 'Boy/Girl', with the song 'Boy/Girl' and some songs later re-recorded for 'Boy'.

Here's a live performance of 'Boy/Girl':
- - - - -
U2 Boy/Girl & Out Of Control
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKzl29Yvpek
Live San Francisco. 5/15/81
- - - - -

Here I like U2 very much. They look human here. :)

Maybe self-censoring could be an extra reason to keep 'A Celebration' a vinyl rarity. My guess is that they sound very much like a cute, hyperactive early 1980s boyband. Maybe they find the first two LPs already more than enough. On the third LP, 'War', with 'Sunday Bloody Sunday', they sound much like they are today.

Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:A mixing-desk has multiple connections and faders. For example, you can plug in a guitar and one or a microphone at the same time. Or more more microphones and more guitars, depending on what you choose.
Here's an example, a cheap one: Tapco MIX 60
http://feedback.nl/?id=55&b=MIX60
I guess there should be mixers with USB-possibilities as well?

I didn’t knew mixing-desks could be so unexpensive. I haven’t seen them below 200 euros before.
It’s something to keep in mind. It would be really cool to play life with others, or play guitar and sing at the same time.

And so history is written.
Stephan bought a mixing-desk and recorded a CD that would change music forever.

Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:Music is not only expressing yourself, but also being capable to do it. The better you can play, by starting simple, the more you can express.

On the other hand, simplicity does not garantuees good expression. Some songs by artists like Frans Bauer and Jan Smit are uncomplicated, but still make me feel they do not mean what they sing. It seems fake.
But personally I indeed often miss the main goal of music or the main-theme of the song, because I want to much, or because I make the song with the wrong intentions. I’m working a lot on songwriting right now, to really make songs that are me.

Simplicity has nothing to do with true or false intentions. Difficult songs can be fake, too.
Making "songs that are me" sounds very honest, but how good do you know yourself? My experience is that when experimating writing, that I'm more honest when I try to be fake. I try to think of something that is not me, or an exaggeration, but still I end up with myself. That gives me a freedom to do whatever I can, because the result will be "me" anyway.

Another experiment is that I've began use words from the media, like newspapers and books. It's just a matter of being creative in making it my own. I could for example take some lines from comic books, and mix them with something I hear on the television (or read in the subtitles).

I've heard some rule that a song should at least contain one good line, something remarkable. That line could be just something weird, like something from Barks: "I must shave the women and children!" Use it as a refrain (with or without the "shave"-joke), write some whatever stuff around it and you're ready. The song will be personal just because you compiled it. The fact that you like a line or a word, says something about you. (Or am I getting too hazy here, standing on my soapbox?)

Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:Playing with a metronome can be difficult in the beginning, because the metropnome is the boss and it needs discipline to keep in tempo and rhythm. A metronome may sound irritating in the beginning, but the better you play along the less you hear it.
I'm using a Korg MA-30. About 25 Euro's. Since using this metronome I'm very into practicing.

I can use my fathers metrome which he uses when he drums. And when I play guitar on Cubase I always use a metrome too. But I do need to work on my timing, it’s often unstraight, which damages the song.

Daniel73 wrote:I suggest you try some easy lesson book how to play guitar,

I’ve taken my first guitarlessons last weeks, and I’ve learned a lot of things that I never really was sure about. Like how play a chordprogression (up or down stroking), and how to grab the chords in the right way.
Since the last lesson I’m learning to play different kinds of songs and while doing so I’ll learn more and more things. The first song was ‘Californication’, from which especially the solo was interesting, because I’m very bad in figuring out choruses or in playing them.
Here’s an attempt:
http://media.putfile.com/Californicationsol

Compliments. I think that in essence it sounds much like Frusciante. There are some mistakes but that's just matter of practicing it further.
The more control, the more timing and the more subtility. It gives more self-confidence when you know you can rely on your capacities. The more self-confidence the more you dare to do. It's an upward spiral.

Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:Have you tried recording the same guitar part twice, for example? As if two guitar players are playing exactly the same? Then you get rich sound. ABBA used that method. In some songs, they recorded parts twice.

I hear it sometimes in songs and it sounds very cool. A lot of songs on ‘Stadium Arcadium’ have guitars from different sides, and ther’s also one Gorillaz-song (5/4) which starts with one overdriven guitar on the left and is joined by another one on the right.
I haven’t really expirimentated a lot with that yet.

Stereo effects are ways to balance sounds over two speakers, but it's not music. A decent stereo-recording might sound horrible in mono, on a radio. That's why I'm more into mono when practicing, to be sure that it is what it is.
Playing in 5/4 is something I haven't tried yet. Apart from 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4, I only understand 7/4.

Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:You have interesting word-choices and impressions.

The problem is that I’ve got the feeling a lot of songs I write aren’t actually honest, or they don’t really reflect my feelings enough. I really need to work on that. Maybe by first writing the main idea of a song and actually a non-rhyming story, and then make it a good flowing song.

Daniel73 wrote:I suggest you try to write (imitate) a children's song, with simple couplets that have a steady pattern. That's a good lesson to write songs, as you can easily see what goes wrong and what works good.

That’s an idea. It could help me to keep a clear vision on the song I’m writing.

I think you have a recognizable style in what you've done so far. I think your limitation is that you don't know how to edit the words and lines.
Forget about reflecting your feelings and being honest here. You're a songwriter, a storyteller. Who cares about you? A lot of artists make awful records when they try to be just themselves. In stories and songs you can be a liar. That's the fun of being a creator! "I've seen the moon rising from the gutter..." blah blah blah.

Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:So far, my recordings won't sell. They have the best copy-protection ever: No one will ever desire to copy them. And you need a special decoder to hear what I hear from them. Mostly the recordings are intended as reminders of possibilities I've tried.

Do you have different recordings besides ‘Zovaak Zaterdag’? (‘So many times Saterday’). I’m interested :).

I've made much draft recordings on my Fostex since 2004, figuring out how chords and tones work. 'Zo vaak zaterdag' (Zaterdag jam #1 en #2) is the only real result that I can defend. But it's an instrumental now. I've put aside the lyrics from Frank. A friend of mine wanted to do his own version, and so I was glad that Frank fell for it, and that I could step out. My intention was to have fun with the Fostex while doing guitar practice, as a way to just shamelessly amuse myself.
After I've finally sorted out my "archive" and my internet activities, I'd be more than glad to continue with it. Your enthousiasm in practicing and exploring music is catching.

Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:The Beatles have such a song: 'Tomorrow never knows' (entirely in C, except for some C7, which is still C)

I haven’t heard that song yet, I’ll try to download it.

Amazingly, the song was included in 'The Beatles Cartoons', a children's series. The voices are by actors, but the song are from The Beatles themselves.

Tomorrow Never Knows-The Beatles Cartoons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re8lOhx1wE8
The introduction looks a bit like a scene in Barks's 'Mystery of the Swamp', where the Old Gnasty starts speaking. The song itself starts at 01:40.

BTW. I think the negative comments at YouTube are unfair about the cartoon, because there is some remarkable animation like the camera moving around John Lennon, at 02:30.

Stephan wrote:
Daniel73 wrote:Principal question is: What is psychedelic? The word has also been used as a fashion word.

I’m definitly not an expert, but for me, psychadelic stands for unusual music, confusing, against all standard expectations, music from the sixties, most times with a lot of drugs involved.
I think ‘Vertigo’ is more Rock, though kind of confusing too. (But I think that’s U2’s intention. Vertigo appears to be about confusion in a discotheque called Vertigo.)

There's a lot of music that involves drugs. I've understood that Frank Zappa was against drugs, while he has made some very weird music. And Adam Clayton, bass-player of U2, has been caught with drugs, around the time of 'Achtung Baby'.
I see psychedelic music as a childlike approach, as in fairy tales. The wolf lives in the park and Mrs. Grapefruit has a blue umbrella. Whatever. (This weird example that I'm making up, could be a childlike obversation of a city.)

Stephan wrote:P.s.: I’m sorry for the late response, I’ve made it myself quite busy last weeks.

Well, okay. But don't let it ever happen again. :P

*EDIT* boardlinking updated to McDrake
Last edited by Daniel_73 on Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Daniel_73
 

Postby Stephan » Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:00 pm

Daniel wrote:My "Daniel73"-profile turned to moderating on 15 October 2006. Since then I rather don't use that profile for discussions that have nothing to do with moderating/maintaining.

I understand, to keep the discussions clear.

Daniel wrote:like 'Give it Away' very much, with the backward guitar solo by Frusciante, and I like Kiedis's voice in it.

This was actually one of the songs I didn’t really like when I heard the Peppers for the first time, about when ‘Can’t Stop’ was a hit. I thought their songs sounded a bit the same (which songs always do if they are new to you and you haven’t took the time yet to get to know them), and I didn’t understand why the Peppers were so famous.
But now I actually like this song. Indeed the singing and guitar are good. I’m thinking about buying ‘Blood Sugar Sex Magik’.

Daniel wrote:Red Hot Chili Peppers - Give It Away

I know this clip from a parody by Weird Al Yankovic, in which he changes the lyrics to ‘Yabadoo yabadoo yabadoo now’ (Flinstones). Are those Kiedis’real teeth :)?

Daniel wrote:Also in general, I think it would be nice if artists and groups would release instrumental versions of their records, without vocals.

Although musicians like you and me would like instrumental versions, it’s unlikely to happen, because most fans just want to hear the entire song. It would be a very uncommercial thing to release an instrumental record.

Danmiel73 wrote:Now you say, that's what I dislike about Frusciante's 'Water'. The drums are not just loud, the sound itself is hulking. And cold.
In 'Give it Away' the drums are on the background, but still they are sounding too loud, overuling the warm sound of the bass and the guitars.

Indeed. Not at all that I think Chad is a bad drummer, but he could try to get a more harmonically volume.
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Postby Stephan » Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:46 pm

Daniel wrote:[‘Death of a Martian’ end lyrics] To be honest, I can't make much out of it. If anything.
It could be willfull ranting. Or some poetry that I don't get. (Or both.)

Me neither, not that I’m very good at English anyway, but what do you think of it, musically? It’s the best CD ending I’ve ever heard.
I think the lyrics are about being abandoned by someone/something. And the ‘YouTube’ description says it’s about Flea’s (late?) dog, called Martian. But that’s about all I get from the lyrics.

Daniel wrote:What will be the difference with the 2CD they released in about 1998? I doubt that a 'Best of' CD will include rare gems. On DVD there's only a compilation of videos from the 1990s, if I'm not mistaken. U2 doesn't look very fond of diving into rarities of their past.

The track listing of ‘U218 singles’ has been announced, there aren’t any unknown or infamous songs on it.
I don’t know how to get those rare songs. The only song I had been able to download a few weeks ago was ‘Things to Make and Do’ an instrumental song from one of their first singles.

Daniel wrote:Also missing on CD is their EP 'Boy/Girl', with the song 'Boy/Girl' and some songs later re-recorded for 'Boy'.

Here's a live performance of 'Boy/Girl':

Great, I hadn’t heard or seen that song before. Maybe you mean with the EP ‘Boy/Girl’ ‘U2 3’? The song has also been released in a live version on an ‘I will Follow’–single.

Daniel wrote:And so history is written.
Stephan bought a mixing-desk and recorded a CD that would change music forever.

I think it’s very hard to change music. Sometimes I’m jealous on people who lived fifty years ago, because they had much more to change. Of course that’s kind of a lame thought, because people who lived in 1950 would say exactly the same thing about people who lived in 1900.
But anyway, if I manage to record a CD and get it actually produced that would be great.

Daniel wrote:Making "songs that are me" sounds very honest, but how good do you know yourself? My experience is that when experimating writing, that I'm more honest when I try to be fake. I try to think of something that is not me, or an exaggeration, but still I end up with myself. That gives me a freedom to do whatever I can, because the result will be "me" anyway.

That’s true. I think the problem is that I’m a control-freak and a perfectionist, I try to make a song to be exactly the way I want it. But you’re right, whatever I write, it always shows what I’m thinking, even if it’s completely rubbish :).

Daniel wrote:The fact that you like a line or a word, says something about you. (Or am I getting too hazy here, standing on my soapbox?)

I think you’re right.
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Postby Daniel_73 » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:17 pm

- - - - - - - - - -
The Complete U2 is a "digital box set" by U2, released exclusively online in the iTunes Music Store on November 23, 2004. It is the first major release of an online box set by any artist. It contains the complete set of U2 albums, extras extending the total to 446 songs - singles, live, rare and previously unreleased material - from 1978 to 2004. Retail price is $149.99, but a $50 coupon was included with U2 Special Edition iPods (those based on the fourth-generation iPod.) Newer U2 Special Edition iPods (with video - those based on the fifth-generation iPod) include a code redeemable for a 33-minute compliation of live performances and interviews with the band in lieu of the $50 coupon towards The Complete U2.
- - - - - - - - - -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complete_U2
Daniel_73
 

Postby Daniel_73 » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:30 pm

The box set seems to be only available via internet. And it's not so complete after all.

Criticism on 'The Complete U2':
http://www.u2wanderer.org/isthatall/004.html
Daniel_73
 

Postby Stephan » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:23 am

Daniel wrote:Criticism on 'The Complete U2':

Good to see some critical U2-fans, too. I hate that eternal suck-up ism from fans to their idols. Although sometimes, I’m guilty of that thing as well. E.g.: in the ‘Carl Barks/Don Rosa’ discussion, where it was obvious that Don Rosa damages the reputation of Disney-comics with his ‘Adult’-stories (‘All right, between the legs!’).
I hate downloading music digitally anyway. I think it’s much more interesting to buy a CD and listen to the songs on my CD-player while I’m reading the lyrics along with the booklet. And I haven’t got an MP3-player or Ipod anyway.
The good thing is that songs as ‘Boy/Girl’ are available, and some early demo’s I’ve never heard of before (‘Street Missions’). Can you actually download just some songs out you like, or should you download the entire album at once?

Daniel wrote:Compliments. I think that in essence it sounds much like Frusciante. There are some mistakes but that's just matter of practicing it further. The more control, the more timing and the more subtility. It gives more self-confidence when you know you can rely on your capacities. The more self-confidence the more you dare to do. It's an upward spiral.

Thanks. At first the solo sounded really terrible, but after a lot of explanation and instructions from my guitar teacher it goes quite well now. Taking guitar lessons is really better then trying to figure out things myself.

Daniel wrote:Stereo effects are ways to balance sounds over two speakers, but it's not music. A decent stereo-recording might sound horrible in mono, on a radio. That's why I'm more into mono when practicing, to be sure that it is what it is.

But it does contribute to the atmosphere of the song, I think. You can suggest things like distance, confusion and other things by experimentating with stereo effects. John Frusciante uses these effects a lot on ‘Stadium Arcadium’, like an acoustic guitar part on the left which is accompanied by a guitar on the right in the choruses in ‘Slow Cheetah’.
But indeed the stereo-aspect is something to think about after you have written a song, just as the question which guitar effects you want to use in that song.

Daniel wrote:Playing in 5/4 is something I haven't tried yet. Apart from 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4, I only understand 7/4.

I don’t really know if the Gorillaz use a 5/4 rhythm in the song, but the song is called ‘5/4’. Have you heard anything from the Gorillaz? I love their first CD, and ‘Demon Days’ is quite good too. One of my favourite songs from the album is ‘Sound Check (gravity)’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRUbsPiYCAA
I don’t know what the Johnny Depp pictures have got to do with it, and I’m not sure if it really is the correct song, because I’m typing on a school computer without sound options right now. But if it does works I’m curious to what you think of it. I really like the sad acoustic intro going over in a hip-hop like beat.
Some Gorilla-songs:

Clint Eastwood - Gorillaz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpDer9wdUEw

5/4 - Gorillaz
Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YmAJHzdG8s

El Mañana - Gorillaz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts_DtJ6C0Ks

Tomorrow Comes Today - Gorillaz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2QP832OstY

19/2000 Soulchild Remix - Gorillaz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v6gcgrwaXk

Their songs are often simple, but catchy and full of ideas. I like actually variation between cartoon-bands as the Gorillaz and more serious bands as U2.

Daniel wrote:Forget about reflecting your feelings and being honest here. You're a songwriter, a storyteller. Who cares about you? A lot of artists make awful records when they try to be just themselves. In stories and songs you can be a liar. That's the fun of being a creator! "I've seen the moon rising from the gutter..." blah blah blah.

It’s fun to create your own world in music. For me it’s just a matter of stop being a perfectionist, and being happy with the music that I make. Music is also a great opportunity for me to talk about all kind of things which I wouldn’t say just in normal conversations.

Daniel wrote:Tomorrow Never Knows-The Beatles Cartoons

From what I recall it really sounded good. I wouldn’t say listening to it that it was built on just one chord, amazing.
About the cartoons, technically they aren’t badly drawn at all. The animation and the characters are both very good.
The only thing is that I wonder why people would animate the Beatles. I mean, even though it’s an immense renown band, it’s weird to make a cartoon version of it. I’d rather see the real beatles.

Daniel wrote:I see psychedelic music as a childlike approach, as in fairy tales. The wolf lives in the park and Mrs. Grapefruit has a blue umbrella. Whatever. (This weird example that I'm making up, could be a childlike obversation of a city.)

This kind of psychedelic music can be great; it has got something to say. But sometimes I hear music which gives me the idea the band in case is just being psychedelic for the sake of being psychedelic. Sometimes I can’t make a word of some lyrics, and I’ve got the feeling those bands want to get away with that by calling their music psychedelic.
But there are rock and pop songs which can be just as confusing. There are some U2-songs which I don’t really understand.
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